"Annoying" plugins on official list

Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Hello all.

I don't know if it's all the same to you, but I think it is really anoying to have paid plugins in the plugins directory. Besides the issues around selling code that derivates from the GPLv2 License, I don't think they belong to the open directory. If they must have it's space, at least they must be tagged or go to another directory (let's say, marketplace?).

Thanks. Best regards,
Richard.

Replies (28)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Joshua DeClercq over 4 years ago

I can agree with tagging, but based on past threads on the same topic, I don't see the site removing them altogether.

Just the same, I strongly feel that any plugin listed on Redmine.org should support, you know, Redmine. If there's a fork of Redmine building add-ons that require switching to the fork and don't support plain-old Redmine, nuke them. They're nothing but distractions.

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Jan Niggemann (redmine.org team member) over 4 years ago

Joshua DeClercq wrote:

If there's a fork of Redmine building add-ons that require switching to the fork and don't support plain-old Redmine, nuke them.

Are there any such add-ons?

EDIT:

Besides the issues around selling code that derivates from the GPLv2 License,

There's nothing wrong with that: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Joshua DeClercq over 4 years ago

Jan Niggemann wrote:

Joshua DeClercq wrote:

If there's a fork of Redmine building add-ons that require switching to the fork and don't support plain-old Redmine, nuke them.

Are there any such add-ons?

The Easy Redmine folk do this. Right in on the plugins front page right now is one:

http://www.redmine.org/plugins/calculated-custom-fields

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Terence Mill over 4 years ago

Easyredmine itself is a plugin which most others of their plugin need to work.
see Easy Redmine only label

Its somehow a fork. However if you buy the plugin(s) you get the code along, (there is no other way in rails, is there ?) and the you could publish that code into the web for everyone. So you can do crowd founding for GPL software (just had a new business idea -lol). Thats GPL - so far i understood.

At the moment rhere are only easyredmine and redminecrm offering commercial plugin, so its pretty clearly represented, especially if there is no source code repo link nor download package.

Its only a question of: Does redmine.org publish profit partners or does it not. Its opensource at all.

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

So, if somehow someone strip out all GPL source code from Easy Redmine, it will work? As a standalone product?

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Terence Mill over 4 years ago

Per definition all easyredmine pluginsa are infected by redmine's GPL. Seperation needed for other licence allowed would need a complete other program/runtime or process, whats not possible for any redmine plugin. Am i'm wrong? So it won't work because there is nothing left.. ;)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Terence Mill over 4 years ago

Richard Kuesters wrote:

So, they're GPL.

Its GPL, its opensource and they sell their source code for money, what's allowed in GPL.
Yes, so what you intense all about here?

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

My intense? None. It just feels like "bad propaganda". I mean: we're here, working on, sharing our code on github/bitbucket/whatever, and ... Some folks use, let's say, the "people's directory" to promote plugins that brings nothing to the community. Someone has to pay to have it. And, if you're that someone: share the code with the community :) The community will be much obliged and you'll be doing nothing wrong :)

And folks, remember that: if you buy code that depends on other code (that are GPL), you have the right to have everything from the GPL onwards to make whatever-you-want works. It doesn't care if it's a simple-line-script to an entire stack :)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Wow. I just had an epiphany. What about create a plugin to raise funds to buy paid plugins and share them around? :)

THAT would be cool :D

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Terence Mill over 4 years ago

Its somehow a fork. However if you buy the plugin(s) you get the code along, (there is no other way in rails, is there ?) and the you could publish that code into the web for everyone. So you can do crowd founding for GPL software (just had a new business idea -lol). Thats GPL - so far i understood.

That's what i said. An you just need to go to Startnext and create a new project for the plugin to crowd found. However you will then need to develop it yourself (opensource repo), because you won't have updates after shipped once. You could also buy commercial-use-maintenance liecense and get updates fpr this time, which you could then distribute again.
Judicial the original distributor can't deny to give you the software, even if he don't like what your are doing. Software under GPL is opensource, so every one whow wants it has the right to claim it. It don't think its durable also that the distributor makes you pay more tahn the other's standard price from list. This quick thoughts are rare theoretically ;)

Good software needs maitenance and these guys need money to pay their rent. From my opinion its better they spent they business time on redmine than on other things, because redmine is fu**. cool thing, so let's allow them to make their business.
However it would be best that this "commercial" redmine profiteers give apparently back their works to the community, e.g by also offering "free of use" plugins, that's e.g the redminecrm.com guy do, see Free plugins.

I have to admit i don't see anything like this for the www.easyredmine.com guys, they only have paid products and paid service, and i never saw any core patch uploaded by them. Maybe i am wrong with this, they could be incognito ;)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Terence Mill wrote:

Good software needs maitenance and these guys need money to pay their rent. From my opinion its better they spent they business time on redmine than on other things, because redmine is fu**. cool thing, so let's allow them to make their business.
However it would be best that this "commercial" redmine profiteers give apparently back their works to the community, e.g by also offering "free of use" plugins, that's e.g the redminecrm.com guy do, see Free plugins.

That's exactly my point. You can use and even profit from opensource software, licenses apart [...] but, IMHO, you should give something back. If you can't help with code, why not pay 10 bucks a month to sponsor it? I do that with a couple of projects, wikipedia, etc; and also provide code when I can.

Well, that's a little off-thread (from what I first wrote), but nevertheless invalid. I just think that this "model" of plugin announces (or the directory itself) should provide more information for users, ie: want to put your paid plugin into the Redmine directory? Give something back to the project too. I think it would be fair.

Cheers,
Richard.

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Terence Mill over 4 years ago

That's exactly my point. You can use and even profit from opensource software, licenses apart [...] but, IMHO, you should give something back. If you can't help with code, why not pay 10 bucks a month to sponsor it? I do that with a couple of projects, wikipedia, etc; and also provide code when I can.

I didnd't mean money, because that they already did.
see Donors

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Terence Mill wrote:

I didnd't mean money, because that they already did.

I know. I used it as example. It can be anything. A "lite" version of the plugin. Bug fixes. Core improvements. And so on :)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Jan Niggemann (redmine.org team member) over 4 years ago

Baseline: Selling a copy of a free program is legitimate, and we encourage it. (FSF)

Terence Mill wrote:

Good software needs maitenance and these guys need money to pay their rent. From my opinion its better they spent they business time on redmine than on other things, because redmine is fu**. cool thing, so let's allow them to make their business.

Exactly - nothing to add there.

However it would be best that this "commercial" redmine profiteers give apparently back their works to the community, e.g by also offering "free of use" plugins, that's e.g the redminecrm.com guy do, see Free plugins.

Correct, that would be - IMHO - one of three options, the other two being
  • contribute patches / ideas (like plan.io)
  • donate money (EasySoftware is listed as Gold Donor - $1,000 and up)

Conclusion: "There is nothing wrong with selling GPL software: Those who do exercise the freedom given to them by the developers who chose the GPL." (myself)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Jan Niggemann wrote:

Conclusion: "There is nothing wrong with selling GPL software: Those who do exercise the freedom given to them by the developers who chose the GPL." (myself)

I always wonder why people get so angry about other people opinion over the internet. Anyway, I never said that sell GPL code is wrong :) I started this topic by saying how annoying is to get to the plugin directory of a completely free software, find a plugin "that might be cool" and ... No downloads, nothing. Just an advertisement. Buy ad words if this is the purpose. Now, about GPL: why all the fuzz? If a quote from FSF makes you sleep better, who am I to judge? :)

Cheers,
Richard.

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Jan Niggemann (redmine.org team member) over 4 years ago

Richard Kuesters wrote:

I always wonder why people get so angry

You must have misunderstood, at least it's not me who's angry :-)

I started this topic by saying how annoying is to get to the plugin directory of a completely free software, find a plugin "that might be cool" and ... No downloads, nothing. Just an advertisement. Buy ad words if this is the purpose.

You're annoyed because you wanted to use a plugin you found on this site and then realized you'd have to spend money on it. Sorry for that, but we do accept commercial plugins in the directory.
Regarding ad words: Our purpose is not making money with ads here, but to cover the costs. You realized that redmine didn't cost you a cent, how do you think we cover the costs of hosting etc? Ads help a tiny bit with that...

You wrote:

You can use and even profit from opensource software, licenses apart [...] but, IMHO, you should give something back.
If you can't help with code, why not pay 10 bucks a month to sponsor it? I do that with a couple of projects, wikipedia, etc; and also provide code when I can.

That's perfect, you and Easy software (or plan.io) do just the same :-)

Now, about GPL: why all the fuzz?

You seem to have kind of a bad memory, let me help you quoting your own words (emphasis mine):

Besides the issues around selling code that derivates from the GPLv2 License

So... What fuzz? You said there's an issue, several people told you that there is not.

If a quote from FSF makes you sleep better, who am I to judge? :)

I don't sleep, I code ;-)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Jan Niggemann wrote:

You must have misunderstood, at least it's not me who's angry :-)

Cool! I may have got the h1 tags wrong or something :P I am annoyed, like I said.

You're annoyed because you wanted to use a plugin you found on this site and then realized you'd have to spend money on it. Sorry for that, but we do accept commercial plugins in the directory.

Not really. I just think that the plugin directory is a mess with this mix of free/paid plugins. I'm not saying that this is a "special feeling of mine" - it could help anyone who doesn't want to pay or do want for plugins that make something wonderful, don't you agree? That is the whole point of my thread:

If they must have it's space, at least they must be tagged or go to another directory (let's say, marketplace?).

Unfortunatelly, the GPL word spoke louder. At least some people understood what I said.

Regarding ad words: Our purpose is not making money with ads here, but to cover the costs.

Are you saying about the Redmine project itself? If so, I am 100% with you. But, I was talking about those who wants to sell plugins where, well, things are supposed to be free - given the premise that the main project is free, the community works hard on it to improve; and so on.

You realized that redmine didn't cost you a cent, how do you think we cover the costs of hosting etc? Ads help a tiny bit with that...

Erm, yes, it costs. Time too. Like to anyone :) A definition of "cost" would take too long.

You wrote:

You can use and even profit from opensource software, licenses apart [...] but, IMHO, you should give something back.
If you can't help with code, why not pay 10 bucks a month to sponsor it? I do that with a couple of projects, wikipedia, etc; and also provide code when I can.

That's perfect, you and Easy software (or plan.io) do just the same :-)

I don't think so, but, honestly, I don't care. It would also take too long and it's not the point.

Now, about GPL: why all the fuzz?

You seem to have kind of a bad memory, let me help you quoting your own words (emphasis mine):

Besides the issues around selling code that derivates from the GPLv2 License

So... What fuzz? You said there's an issue, several people told you that there is not.

It's kind of hard to explain something when people doesn't want to understand. IMHO there are issues. If there's not for someone, good! Freedom for all :)

If a quote from FSF makes you sleep better, who am I to judge? :)

I don't sleep, I code ;-)

Congratulations and welcome to the club :D

Cheers!

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Jan Niggemann (redmine.org team member) over 4 years ago

Richard Kuesters wrote:

Not really. I just think that the plugin directory is a mess with this mix of free/paid plugins. I'm not saying that this is a "special feeling of mine" - it could help anyone who doesn't want to pay or do want for plugins that make something wonderful, don't you agree? That is the whole point of my thread:

As a redmine team member I welcome your proposal to help. We always need volunteers, go ahead and create a wiki-based directory that better suits your needs.

IMHO there are issues [with commercial plugins and the GPL]

You approach this from an ethical POV (and that's OK), but the GPL itself isn't about ethics. It's a die-hard line of defense against the closed-source abuse of OSS. The philosophy behind the GPL is about ethics though...

The agreed-upon ethical conjecture that those who make money with our work should give something back is perfectly valid.
And at least plan.io and EasySoftware follow that do give something back to the community :-)

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Jan Niggemann wrote:

As a redmine team member I welcome your proposal to help. We always need volunteers, go ahead and create a wiki-based directory that better suits your needs.

Thanks for the tip. I don't know how far can a wiki-based directory can go, but, my only real complain is that the official one doesn't have enough information [about plugins]. I'm not complaining about plan.io, EasySoftware or whatever company makes use of it. I just started the thread to raise my opinion that the official directory could provide more information about them, and that's all :) Some of my ideas sounds radical (ironic, for the good sakes), some not (like tagging). I mean, a tagging system can't hurt, can it? ;) And I think there are opensource plugins that can do that, lol.

As of being a member, all I can is thank you for this wonderful project. I mean, I'm a C/C++/Python low-level programmer and the only Ruby code I like (and sometimes help with patches - all of them on github) is Redmine (no offenses). If I had time to know Ruby a little better, I would certainly put my finger on something, heh.

You approach this from an ethical POV (and that's OK), but the GPL itself isn't about ethics. It's a die-hard line of defense against the closed-source abuse of OSS. The philosophy behind the GPL is about ethics though...

The agreed-upon ethical conjecture that those who make money with our work should give something back is perfectly valid.
And at least plan.io and EasySoftware follow that do give something back to the community :-)

Yes, my POV is purelly ethical, not radical. I'm glad that there are companies that provide "something" back to Redmine, as other companies give back directly to the community or sponsoring other projects. As I said in the messages above this one, I sometimes help Wikipedia with content (which is their focus), but I also help'em with 10 bucks a month. It's worthy. I give donations to Twisted Matrix (and they're not GPL'd), put code on github, help people on freenode, blah blah blaht blah. I'm not in the mood to burst on fire all those who sell opensource derived code :)

Just coming back to what I essentially wanted: more info. I'm pretty sure there are people making [free] plugins on their spare time, away from their families, sharing it with us; same as the project members, and again blah blah blah.

Cheers,
Richard.

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Jan Niggemann (redmine.org team member) over 4 years ago

You're right (and it has been discussed several times before), the plugin directory really needs a rework. I like tagging and I also think that a big '$' could be placed in a prominent position to quickly indicate at first glance that the plugin is commercial...

That said, we need more manpower to tackle this...
#11222
#10670
#9052
#8724

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Uwe Koloska over 4 years ago

Where is the code to fork and provide pull requests?

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Richard Kuesters over 4 years ago

Jan Niggemann wrote:

You're right (and it has been discussed several times before), the plugin directory really needs a rework. I like tagging and I also think that a big '$' could be placed in a prominent position to quickly indicate at first glance that the plugin is commercial...

That said, we need more manpower to tackle this...
#11222
#10670
#9052
#8724

Hmmm ... Cool :) I'll just have to understand rails a little better, lol! But I can give it a try ... ;)

Cheers!

RE: "Annoying" plugins on official list - Added by Javi Ferrer over 4 years ago

I think the problem is that not all easyredmine plugins are compatible with redmine.

As you can see in their online store there are plugins published at plugin directory of redmine that are only compatible with easyredmine. The purpose of publish these plugins in redmine.org is only for propaganda. I think this is not ethic, despite of they have Gold donors o GPL license.

IMHO, all plugins that are no compatible with redmine must be removed from the directory.

Best regards,

Javi.

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